Topic: tuning questions

[craziechild]

hi all... another rather noobish thing to ask... 

when we put a mid-range and the tweeters close together on the a-pillar... will different xover point for both the driver gives it a different effect?

what's the sifu's experience?

thanks....

[Vegatron]

I've not done it myself, but I've heard a few setups where 3" or 4" mids are placed on the dash at the A pillars. Generally harder to get centre image and the mid tends to drown out the tweeters. Personally I prefer to have the mids in kicks and a 6.5" or 7" in the doors easier to get centre image... I've heard setups with the tweeters in the kicks too and it's dead centre image!


my 2 sushis worth... 

[Zenn]

if u have ability to change crrossover values (active setup) then yes u have to change to get the best combination of frequency & slope.  if u have a passive only, cant change, then u have to see which location more suitable.

[iceless]

when we put a mid-range and the tweeters close together on the a-pillar... will different xover point for both the driver gives it a different effect?

thanks....

craziechild,

To answer your question (if I understood your question correctly)... yes.. there will be difference. But what is your purpose of doing so? Centre Image? Stage Height? Tonal Balance??

IMO, if both drivers are crossed say Left - 80Hz : Right - 100Hz, you may face some tonal balance issues. Using the IASCA 7 drum beats as reference point, your left tombeats may sound bolder / fuller compared to your right tombeats.

For me, I'd rather play around with driver positioning and if necessary adjust the XO points but I'll keep the difference to the minimum.

my 2cents worth...

ICEless. 

[craziechild]

erm... mayb i wasnt asking very clearly also la... hehe...

well... my situation is i had my H701 burnt the other day because my car charging system kong and really fried my stuff up... dunno how it happened but it jus happened la...

so while waiting for my 701 for the repairs and all tht... i use a passive the has a Hz point of 5khz 12db high pass... connect it to my tweeter and my mid which are close together on the a-pillar... and i hav a 8" on my door... which i cross it at 520hz 12db.... used them for around two months... then now use back the 701 with the passives... i dun feel there is a difference between using a e xover and passives... now i high pass my tweeters to 12khz 12db... and my mid band pass at 12khz and 520hz 12db also...

so i was wondering if a e xover is really needed... and does the xover point changes anything? or it is jus my ear tht is fooling me around...

cheers...

[wengweng]

Congrat crazie, if passive is the same as active to you, you can save on the amp channels, wire etc.

[craziechild]

but my passives also bi-amping le... hehe... still need the extra channel o... hehe...

[wengweng]

OOoooo....

As long as it sounds nice to you, nothing else matter, right ? At least you can sell the 701 mah....

[craziechild]

hehe...

still considering wan to sell it or not... hehe...

another thing... will repair job for my 701 unit cause my 701 not to work its best performance hence giving me this problem?

cheer...

[Vegatron]

erm... mayb i wasnt asking very clearly also la... hehe...
** Yeah not clear enuff :D

i use a passive the has a Hz point of 5khz 12db high pass... connect it to my tweeter and my mid which are close together on the a-pillar...
** I don't understand this, means both mid and tweet and mid are highpassed at 5khz???

and i hav a 8" on my door... which i cross it at 520hz 12db....
** no why in the world would you cross at 520hz? I would use that value probably for the 4" mids... but not 8" !!! I'd make the fella play 45hz up ! :D

used them for around two months... then now use back the 701 with the passives... i dun feel there is a difference between using a e xover and passives... now i high pass my tweeters to 12khz 12db... and my mid band pass at 12khz and 520hz 12db also...
** why 12khz? for the tweeters, u'll lose lots of high freq body ...

so i was wondering if a e xover is really needed... and does the xover point changes anything? or it is jus my ear tht is fooling me around...
** no I think you got major tuning problems. Answer the above questions n I'll see what I can do to help u from here...

[craziechild]

vegatron thankyou first for offering to help me out...

a quick run through of my setup...

HU:Pioneer 5750
Prosessor: Alpine H701 and the controller
Tweets: Scans D3004-660000
mid:Morel CDM54
Woofer:DLS Nobelium 8
Sub: Hellix Dark Blue12"
Amps: Helix H400(2 units)

1. about the passives... they are the two way passives... i mean 5kHz for high-pass and low-pass... my connecttion was high pass for the tweets and low pass for the mid-ranges... and all these are high-passed again at somewhere 500Hz to 600Hz... so its like my mid are band-passed from 500Hz to 5kHz and the tweets are high-passed at 5kHz... hope this one is clear enough...

2. i crossed the 8" at 520Hz is because i was told by the ori owner of the Morel tht the mid are only good lowest till 800Hz and highest around 5kHz... so i dun dare to go too low for those... and i crossed the morel high-pass at 500Hz and lower than tht i run them through the 8" which are band-passed at 520Hz low-pass and 60Hz high pass...

3.

hen now use back the 701 [bold]without[/bold] the passives

  sorry for the typo.. didnt reliaze it... anyway... why 12Khz? i was randomly crossing it... cuz i dun feel any difference from the tweets and the mid on which ever cross point... mayb i am tone deaf or the setup was completely wrong... where do you think i should cross them?

thanks again...

[calvinhpk]

vegatron thankyou first for offering to help me out...

a quick run through of my setup...

HU:Pioneer 5750
Prosessor: Alpine H701 and the controller
Tweets: Scans D3004-660000
mid:Morel CDM54
Woofer:DLS Nobelium 8
Sub: Hellix Dark Blue12"
Amps: Helix H400(2 units)

1. about the passives... they are the two way passives... i mean 5kHz for high-pass and low-pass... my connecttion was high pass for the tweets and low pass for the mid-ranges... and all these are high-passed again at somewhere 500Hz to 600Hz... so its like my mid are band-passed from 500Hz to 5kHz and the tweets are high-passed at 5kHz... hope this one is clear enough...

2. i crossed the 8" at 520Hz is because i was told by the ori owner of the Morel tht the mid are only good lowest till 800Hz and highest around 5kHz... so i dun dare to go too low for those... and i crossed the morel high-pass at 500Hz and lower than tht i run them through the 8" which are band-passed at 520Hz low-pass and 60Hz high pass...

3.   sorry for the typo.. didnt reliaze it... anyway... why 12Khz? i was randomly crossing it... cuz i dun feel any difference from the tweets and the mid on which ever cross point... mayb i am tone deaf or the setup was completely wrong... where do you think i should cross them?

thanks again...

wow.....the scanspeak 6600 tweeter...yummy....

[craziechild]

hehe... but newbie here dunno how to use it correctly... hehe...

[Vegatron]

vegatron thankyou first for offering to help me out...
** no probs .. .I only got 2 sushis worth to offer hehe! :D

a quick run through of my setup...

HU:Pioneer 5750
Prosessor: Alpine H701 and the controller
Tweets: Scans D3004-660000
mid:Morel CDM54
Woofer:DLS Nobelium 8
Sub: Hellix Dark Blue12"
Amps: Helix H400(2 units)

** interesting mix.... I love rojak 

1. about the passives... they are the two way passives... i mean 5kHz for high-pass and low-pass... my connecttion was high pass for the tweets and low pass for the mid-ranges... and all these are high-passed again at somewhere 500Hz to 600Hz... so its like my mid are band-passed from 500Hz to 5kHz and the tweets are high-passed at 5kHz... hope this one is clear enough...
** Ah so desuka. Vellie clear now.


2. i crossed the 8" at 520Hz is because i was told by the ori owner of the Morel tht the mid are only good lowest till 800Hz and highest around 5kHz... so i dun dare to go too low for those... and i crossed the morel high-pass at 500Hz and lower than tht i run them through the 8" which are band-passed at 520Hz low-pass and 60Hz high pass...
** Ok I think I got you, you've bandpassed them 60-520hz ok that shd be about fine...

3.   sorry for the typo.. didnt reliaze it... anyway... why 12Khz? i was randomly crossing it... cuz i dun feel any difference from the tweets and the mid on which ever cross point... mayb i am tone deaf or the setup was completely wrong... where do you think i should cross them?
** u got a great pair of tweeters , and I believe they can easily play down to 3khz or even 2.5khz.

** wokay 1st things 1st. Have you phase checked  all your drivers (tweets, mids , woofers & subs). If you haven't find a good installer who has a good phase checker. Or borrow a phase checker, make sure all are on phase.

Xover settings:
1. high pass your tweeters about 3khz.
2. Bandpass your mids 500 hz to 3khz shd be about right. You might want to try moving the high pass down to maybe 400hz just to play around a bit.
3. Bandpass your 8" woofers 60hz to 500hz or 400hz also the same just to play around with it a bit.
4. Low pass your subwoofer 60hz

Next, don't worry about the staging yet. Are your gains O-scoped? do you know where are the clipping points? If you don't know, I suggest you also send your car in to O-scope the amps, find out at which point they clip. Clip means distort. Which is not audible to an untrained ear, best to use an O-scope to see it.

Next, play around with the gains (assuming u know where are the clipping points), to get a good balanced output between all your drivers, meaning no driver is over powering the other. Means like your morels are over powering the tweets, or tweets are so loud it's killing the music or your 8" is smothering your mids.

Last, to get centre stage..... find an ICE sifu to do placement and fine tuning till u get centre stage :D:D:D sorry... this one is so difficult I can't describe how to get centre stage. It depends on car, speakers, amps, eq, etc etc etc. The combinations are limitless .... like finding a needle in a hay stack.

I told u I only got 2 sushi's worth rite? hehehehe!

Later!

[craziechild]

thanks bro... will do all try your point after this...

anyway.. if my place here doesnt hav a o-scope device to check my things... then anymore ways tht i can determind the amp clipping point? now i hav hav all the gains not more than 9 o'clock on the gain knobs...

and what are phase checker? does tht mean the +ve and -ve are correct or what? hehe... this is very very new to me...

thanks again...

[wengweng]

I have a question : your speakers are raw drivers. Which passive do you use ?

[kevyeoh]

i read from audiocontrol manual, it stated there...the crossover point doesn't really matter...just make sure that you cross at the speaker ability...

the rest is up to EQ to do the job already...
so what i understand is...either you cross at 3kHz or even 4kHz...should not have much difference...

[Zenn]

use custom passive la, then waste all the time, money and effort of changing components  a thousand times to get it right, hahaha.....

good idea, EQ will help a lot, remember the scans nipple and 18W with peerless passive?

[Vegatron]

i read from audiocontrol manual, it stated there...the crossover point doesn't really matter...just make sure that you cross at the speaker ability...

the rest is up to EQ to do the job already...
so what i understand is...either you cross at 3kHz or even 4kHz...should not have much difference...

Well yes it does matter if u're crossing it at 12khz :D  I don't know about you but it does make a difference to me :P

[Vegatron]

thanks bro... will do all try your point after this...

anyway.. if my place here doesnt hav a o-scope device to check my things... then anymore ways tht i can determind the amp clipping point? now i hav hav all the gains not more than 9 o'clock on the gain knobs...

and what are phase checker? does tht mean the +ve and -ve are correct or what? hehe... this is very very new to me...

thanks again...

We'll if u can find an ice sifu with golden ears who can hear distortions, yeah u can try tuning the gains by ear. :D

Yes , + & - must be wired correctly. Again a very trained ear can pick out an out of phase driver ,.. .but in most cases u can't tell the difference.  For me I can tell somethings wrong but I can't pin point exactly which driver is out.. hahaha still need a phase checker to check it.

[craziechild]

Ok now bout the phase thing... i hav all the +ve and -ve wired correctly on the speaker as well as on the amp... is that enough to be phase correct?

the passives are some DIY from jalan pasar which my friend made one for me when my 701 was sent for warranty...

cheers....

[Vegatron]

Ok now bout the phase thing... i hav all the +ve and -ve wired correctly on the speaker as well as on the amp... is that enough to be phase correct?

the passives are some DIY from jalan pasar which my friend made one for me when my 701 was sent for warranty...

cheers....

U can't be 100% sure until u run a phase check. So if something is out, then it'll be wasting time tuning everything else... right?

Jalan pasar passives ....  Some how better stick to the original passives. ... modded and DIY passives tend to yield some strange results...

[craziechild]

thanks for the info for the phase thing there bro... will get it done when i get back to my hometown after my vacation...

well about the passives, they are raw drivers... so had to custom make one for them last time... but now i dun use them anymore...

cheers everysifu...

[wengweng]

craziechild,
I think better use the 701 since the passive is not custom made. Anyhow, you have already all the equipment...

Yea, vegatron's advice is good, do the phase checking etc first

[craziechild]

hello,

now i haven done the phase checking things as advised but i had set the xover points to what vegatron had suggested... and somehow found tht the tweeter sounded rather harsh for me... so any help to tone them down so tht they sound not too harsh?

cheers...

[Vegatron]

u can try 2 things. cut down the gains for the tweeters. Cut down your EQ highs.

[craziechild]

vegatron taikor...

i had search high and low at my place here... and there is none tht has the phase checker thing and also o-scopped... so any idea how to check them DIY?

by the way... i feel there is some gap between my mid bass and my highs on my stage...i mean the bass feels like they are down there at my legs and the vocals and highs are on top of the dashboard... wht should is try? overlapping the frequency range? 

thanks...

[craziechild]

helping a friend of mine to ask... is it true tht if running an 8ohm driver using a 4ohm designed passives would divide the crossover point by 2?

if it is true then how to set the crossover point on a e. xover? hav  to divide by 2 also? or jus set at the point we want?

thanks...

[GRexer]

Depends.. running 8-ohm on 4-ohm passives, lowpass will be multiplied by 2, highpass will be divided by 2. This only happens on passives, active crossover it doesn't matter, just set at the point u want.

[craziechild]

thanks...

[Vegatron]

vegatron taikor...

i had search high and low at my place here... and there is none tht has the phase checker thing and also o-scopped... so any idea how to check them DIY?

by the way... i feel there is some gap between my mid bass and my highs on my stage...i mean the bass feels like they are down there at my legs and the vocals and highs are on top of the dashboard... wht should is try? overlapping the frequency range? 

thanks...

Sorry for the late reply... :P didn't check this forum for a while....  yes there is a "manual" way. Get a 1.5V battery, connect + - to your driver, if cone pops out means on phase, if cone pops in means off phase.

Can you switch off your low pass for your mids? means you only run high pass for the mids and high pass for the tweeters. Try that n see. Also try raising up your high pass for the mids, maybe try 70hz or 80hz.. 

By the way , what is your xover slope? is it 12db, 18db or 24db? Say if it is 12db slope, and you highpass your mids say at 60hz, it will still be playing down to I dunno 40-50hz. A steeper slope helps in your tuning.

[calvinhpk]

Sorry for the late reply... :P didn't check this forum for a while....  yes there is a "manual" way. Get a 1.5V battery, connect + - to your driver, if cone pops out means on phase, if cone pops in means off phase.

Can you switch off your low pass for your mids? means you only run high pass for the mids and high pass for the tweeters. Try that n see. Also try raising up your high pass for the mids, maybe try 70hz or 80hz.. 

By the way , what is your xover slope? is it 12db, 18db or 24db? Say if it is 12db slope, and you highpass your mids say at 60hz, it will still be playing down to I dunno 40-50hz. A steeper slope helps in your tuning.

remember don't test this with your tweeter, it will burn it
test for mid and sub.....ok

[craziechild]

ok ok... will try this one and see...

[wengweng]

battery test can do for dome or not ?

[calvinhpk]

battery test can do for dome or not ?

u want to see the dome popping in and out??