Author Topic: Up Front Sub Bass - How is it attained? (Read 3500 times)

Master D · « **on:** October 06, 2006, 11:22:44 AM »

Hi All,

One of the main things in my system is a lack of good sub blending with the mids and ultimately well defined up front sub bass. What I have done is a lot of tuning in terms of slopes and x.over points with the aid of TA. I know some equipment blend better than others, but is there a general guide on this topic?

I am using an Alpine 9835, should I be messing with the bass focus function ???? I'm kinda stumped, so any feedback would be good! ;D Thanks!

fooyc · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:27:32 AM »

MasterD, you tune on your HU or EQ or Passive+Amp ?

Master D · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:28:50 AM »

Hi fooyc,

Everything done on my HU. :D

Newton · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2006, 04:26:44 PM »

Variable phase shift will help and the frequency of your mid and sub must be tune right...Trial and error bro. Have fun tuning... ;)

fooyc · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2006, 04:49:10 PM »

MasterD,

My worthless 2cents, although I'm not very good in EQ/Freq sort of stuffs.

1st, determine your midbass in highpass (unless u run full range) and knowing your cutoff frequency, should be circulating around 60Hz to 100Hz (I guessing!). Put your sub to lowpass and cutoff frequency approx 60Hz to 80Hz to create the blend of midbass / sub, this is assuming you have no blend issue between your Tw and Mid.

Try to tell. I usually go by ears. If got chance, I can try to listen and we can share notes on how to get it better for your ride.

netken · « **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2006, 07:59:13 PM »

Master D,

Ur using SW300 right? SEAS should be easily push the Bass to the front worrr?? ??? ???

fooyc · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2006, 09:07:54 PM »

BTW, forgot to mention 1 more item, try off phase the sub as well.

chyanne · « **Reply #7 on:** October 07, 2006, 09:27:31 AM »

hmmm..... ???

wengweng · « **Reply #8 on:** October 07, 2006, 10:59:33 AM »

Quote from: Master D on October 06, 2006, 11:22:44 AM

Hi All,

One of the main things in my system is a lack of good sub blending with the mids and ultimately well defined up front sub bass. What I have done is a lot of tuning in terms of slopes and x.over points with the aid of TA. I know some equipment blend better than others, but is there a general guide on this topic?

I am using an Alpine 9835, should I be messing with the bass focus function ???? I'm kinda stumped, so any feedback would be good! ;D Thanks!

Also try different setting on the gain for both the mid and sub besides the xover points. Use Song/music you are familiar with would help also. Start with a fixed setting on the mid, then blend the sub into the midbass. IMHO, good amp will make tuning easier, but that's purely opinion :D.

I tried alpine bass focus function before, but with no good results. Its basically a time alignment function ? I rather separately time align the sub with other drivers

mnkh27 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2006, 10:39:34 PM »

All good points here. My understanding in getting bass up-front is first and foremost the fundamentals. Before working on the crossover points, TA and EQs and processors, I would make sure the following is solved:

1) Good mounting of your midbass drivers, so that you'll get good midbass that will help pull your subbass further front.

2) Sufficient power to your midbass and like what wengweng pointed out, a good amplifier for the subs too. Clean power and headroom is what we're seeking. Not so much of power ratings.

3) Solve all rattling problems from the rear, including C-pillars and rear parcel shelf.

4) Make sure you open a hole somewhere at the rear shelves to allow the bass to get into the cabin.

5) Make sure that bloody subwoofer enclosure is not leaking. If not you'll be more prone to getting mechanical noises from the subwoofer driver.

and finally,

6) If you can afford it, a good and fast sub that can keep up with the front mids.

fooyc · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2006, 07:30:08 AM »

Good point mike and weng! ;D

Master D · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:36:40 PM »

Quote

Posted on: October 06, 2006, 04:30:56 PMPosted by: Newton
Insert Quote
Variable phase shift will help and the frequency of your mid and sub must be tune right...Trial and error bro. Have fun tuning...

Hi Newton,

What do you mean by variable phase shift? Yeah I've been "trial and erroring" for the past 9 months...lol....I've made incremental improvements, just looking for more...hehe!

Master D · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:42:18 PM »

Quote

Posted on: October 06, 2006, 04:53:22 PMPosted by: fooyc
Insert Quote
MasterD,

My worthless 2cents, although I'm not very good in EQ/Freq sort of stuffs.

1st, determine your midbass in highpass (unless u run full range) and knowing your cutoff frequency, should be circulating around 60Hz to 100Hz (I guessing!). Put your sub to lowpass and cutoff frequency approx 60Hz to 80Hz to create the blend of midbass / sub, this is assuming you have no blend issue between your Tw and Mid.

Mids and tweets are in prefect harmony..lol

I've tried doing an overlap, but its not helping, instead I make it worse. I guess its cabin/car dependant because I have seen/heard it done with great results in other cars. :-\

btw, no such thing as worthless comments.... ;) I appreciate all feedback and suggestions!

Master D · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:44:39 PM »

Quote

Posted on: October 06, 2006, 08:03:25 PMPosted by: netken
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Master D,

Ur using SW300 right? SEAS should be easily push the Bass to the front worrr??

Kenneth,

Nope, due to cost matters, I have yet to try the SW300. I'm using a IDQ 15.... ;D

Master D · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:45:42 PM »

Quote

Posted by: fooyc
Insert Quote
BTW, forgot to mention 1 more item, try off phase the sub as well.

Hi fooyc,

Yup did that too....

Master D · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2006, 09:52:06 PM »

Quote

Posted by: wengweng
Insert Quote
Quote
Quote from: Master D on October 06, 2006, 11:26:56 AM
Hi All,

One of the main things in my system is a lack of good sub blending with the mids and ultimately well defined up front sub bass. What I have done is a lot of tuning in terms of slopes and x.over points with the aid of TA. I know some equipment blend better than others, but is there a general guide on this topic?

I am using an Alpine 9835, should I be messing with the bass focus function ? I'm kinda stumped, so any feedback would be good! Thanks!

Also try different setting on the gain for both the mid and sub besides the xover points. Use Song/music you are familiar with would help also. Start with a fixed setting on the mid, then blend the sub into the midbass. IMHO, good amp will make tuning easier, but that's purely opinion .

I tried alpine bass focus function before, but with no good results. Its basically a time alignment function ? I rather separately time align the sub with other drivers

wengweng,

Good point on the gains, I have yet to try that, will do so soon, thank you!

Yeah bass focus is a Time Alignment function, I'm a tad sceptical too cos I finally did my TA to my satisfaction and I'm worried of messing it up if I go on to use the bass focus fucntion. Well anything thats messed up can be easily rectified by just keying in the current TA settings...so...yeah, I just contradicted myself :-X ::) ??? ;D, will give Bass Focus a try when I have a couple of hours to kill.

Thanks!

Master D · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2006, 10:00:26 PM »

Quote

Posted by: mnkh27
Insert Quote
All good points here. My understanding in getting bass up-front is first and foremost the fundamentals. Before working on the crossover points, TA and EQs and processors, I would make sure the following is solved:

1) Good mounting of your midbass drivers, so that you'll get good midbass that will help pull your subbass further front.

2) Sufficient power to your midbass and like what wengweng pointed out, a good amplifier for the subs too. Clean power and headroom is what we're seeking. Not so much of power ratings.

3) Solve all rattling problems from the rear, including C-pillars and rear parcel shelf.

4) Make sure you open a hole somewhere at the rear shelves to allow the bass to get into the cabin.

5) Make sure that bloody subwoofer enclosure is not leaking. If not you'll be more prone to getting mechanical noises from the subwoofer driver.

and finally,

6) If you can afford it, a good and fast sub that can keep up with the front mids.

Hi Mike,

I've got all 5 points you listed solved, :D just not too sure if my IDQ15 is too slow for my mids yet, I think (for now at least) its not... :-\

fooyc · « **Reply #17 on:** October 09, 2006, 09:59:32 AM »

;D Must listen in real loh..

Newton · « **Reply #18 on:** October 09, 2006, 10:04:19 AM »

Quote from: Master D on October 08, 2006, 09:36:40 PM

Hi Newton,

What do you mean by variable phase shift? Yeah I've been "trial and erroring" for the past 9 months...lol....I've made incremental improvements, just looking for more...hehe!

Usually phase shift for amp is either 0' or 180' (You either set it to 0' or you set it to 180', you can't choose anything in between)
In the other hand, if you amp got varible phase shift - You can slowly turn the knob from 0' - 180' and stop at the point where you feel that the bass is upfront...=) Of course this is just one of the option... ;)

Master D · « **Reply #19 on:** October 09, 2006, 11:31:03 AM »

Thanks for the clarification Newton, I've been flipping the phase many times... ;D

netken · « **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2006, 12:05:49 PM »

stupid reply from me, change to SW 300 ... problem solved .. kekeke... ;D :D :o

chyanne · « **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2006, 12:15:37 PM »

hmmm.... i learn somethin real great today..... ;D

Marquis · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2006, 12:19:33 PM »

Quote from: netken on October 09, 2006, 12:05:49 PM

stupid reply from me, change to SW 300 ... problem solved .. kekeke... ;D :D :o

wah..... good idea !

or u can get a 9" sub n place it nex to the driver sit. :o

Master D · « **Reply #23 on:** October 09, 2006, 12:54:56 PM »

Hahaha....put it next to the driver seat ehhh.... ;D

Netken,

UFB (Up Front Bass) should not be equipment specific...rite...I would think the best drivers just help to aid in attaining UFB, but all drivers should have the potential.

GRexer · « **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2006, 01:07:33 PM »

Let me know when you are back here la... i bring the IDQ12 drop in see if the sub-bass gets any "faster' :D

Master D · « **Reply #25 on:** October 09, 2006, 01:17:09 PM »

Will do bro. ;D

GRexer · « **Reply #26 on:** October 09, 2006, 04:05:08 PM »

Or if you want to try out "other" subs, can also, as long as it arrives here in time, it's still stuck in US thanks to the new ruling about shipping magnetic stuffs. Argh! :'( ??? >:(

Master D · « **Reply #27 on:** October 09, 2006, 05:02:27 PM »

you know...I am eagerly awaiting your other sub...what is the ETA?

GRexer · « **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2006, 12:15:57 AM »

As of now, there's no ETA :( Unless i take the "slow" mail that takes at least a month or two to reach ??? :o Still trying to arrange to get a "faster" and cheaper alternative, USPS sucks!(coz they don't wanna ship my unit due to magnetic interferance) So does UPS(for charging so high :D) Now left with Eng's alternative which probably have to go thru someone "famous" around the ICE scene in Malaysia, which i'm still not too keen about, but if it cuts time and also cost, i guess i'll have to close my left eye then. :-X

netken · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:21:24 AM »

wat new rule about shipping magnetic stuff??

MinTze · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:54:25 PM »

ya,i'm keen to know too. ???

GRexer · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2006, 08:58:47 PM »

It's a ruling by US now that they can't ship in, or out certain devices that have magnetic strength over certain strong-ness, i ain't too sure about the details, but that's the main reason my "other sub" is stuck there. ARGH!

netken · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:01:16 PM »

ermmmm ...... lucky my twin subs touch down liao .... :D

but its only 10" ...

GRexer · « **Reply #33 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:07:55 PM »

What shipping did you use? Would be glad to have some info on how to ship over my delayed sub :(

built · « **Reply #34 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:33:08 PM »

Quote from: netken on October 10, 2006, 09:01:16 PM

ermmmm ...... lucky my twin subs touch down liao .... :D

but its only 10" ...

me too, just bought 2 units 10"...
now thinking how to set them up.
any recommendations?

netken · « **Reply #35 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:37:35 PM »

mine is for IB will be installed free air ....

Master D · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2006, 02:12:48 PM »

Netken,

I think grexer was asking what shipping comp you used to have your new subbies transported to Msia la... :)

Zenn · « **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2006, 11:11:08 AM »

which IB sub did u get nenen...??

netken · « **Reply #38 on:** October 12, 2006, 11:27:17 AM »

ohh.. sorri.. mine was shipped on a personal freight .... kontena one ....

hehehe... zenn, followed octave's and npdang's ... recommendation ..

Peerless XXLS ... :D

Zenn · « **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2006, 11:33:44 AM »

aiya.........

sure not that one meant for IB?? ive installed it in a 1.2 cf box and it sounds really nice...(ijud's wira, genesis version).....usually IB subs require huge boxes...like 1.7 above..

GRexer · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2006, 12:25:17 PM »

Yes, the Peerless XXLS is pretty good for IB, so is the Dayton HF ;) Heck, Image Dynamics is long known as the "open market" IB sub, but there's heck loads more of other subs that can do IB, just not available locally.

bLeh · « **Reply #41 on:** November 12, 2006, 01:42:48 AM »

use scan's 9inch..and 1 cb.ft enclosure..will surely give u upfront bass. immediate result!!

calvinhpk · « **Reply #42 on:** November 12, 2006, 11:26:49 AM »

Quote from: bleh on November 12, 2006, 01:42:48 AM

use scan's 9inch..and 1 cb.ft enclosure..will surely give u upfront bass. immediate result!!

agreed......

aurie · « **Reply #43 on:** November 13, 2006, 09:59:35 AM »

i just experienced from RS Audio sub,not bad...plug & play on current setup.upfront liow... :P

just my luck i guess... :)

calvinhpk · « **Reply #44 on:** November 13, 2006, 01:43:31 PM »

RS Audio do makes good speakers ...

aurie · « **Reply #45 on:** November 13, 2006, 02:24:17 PM »

Quote from: calvinhpk on November 13, 2006, 01:43:31 PM

RS Audio do makes good speakers ...

yepp..agreed since listen few setup with full RS drivers. :)