Topic: mid driver selection pros and cons

[craziechild]

hi all sifu...

i have a newbie 3-way setup... and currently still in the process of fine tuning...

ok... my question is currently i am using dome type mid range... and i feel that mid-bass is not enough in front for me...

so would changing the dome mid range to a 5" mid at the kick panel help? thinking of converting the whole kick panel into a small sealed enclosure for the 5" mid...

well as a newbie... i wish to hear about the sifu's comment about the change... and the pro and cons...

oh ya... the current midrange is also at the kick panel...

cheers...

[Audiophiliac]

change to 6.5" Mids sure bass improved

[Zenn]

if midbass is the problem why wanna change the midrange? maybe u just nee dmore power to the midbass, or installation can be improved, like adding metal ring or something..

[polkman]

I guess if your setup is active, you need to recheck your xover frequency for your mid and midbass.
Your xover should not be lower than 250Hz at 18db slope because the mid dome cannot play to lower than 250Hz.

If your xover frequency is ok, than you need to make sure your midbass driver are installed properly. Reinforced your door with damping material and make sure to cover up all the holes on the inner side of doors.

[craziechild]

the door hass been reinforced with 2 layers of dynamat extreme and a layer of wruth like what polkman has said...

actually was thinking about double 6.5" but then the kick panel space only allow 5" max... while the door area... copper ring made was speacially for the 6" iridium already... hehe...

anyway... the area i wan to improve is mid bass area... sub bass is area is enough to me already... just mid bass is lacking... thts why thought of the 5" change...

anyway... currently xover point roughly around
tweeter: hp 2.5k 12db slope
3" mid: hp 350 24db slope lp 2.2k 18db slope
6" mid: hp 70 12db slope lp 350 24db slope
sub: lp 70 30db slope

no TA used... i am anti TA actually...

graphic EQ tuning is going on now when i am free...

any comment? thought change to 5" would be faster to get what i needed...

cheers...

[wengweng]

The midrange has nothing to do with midbass leh. If want keng keng midbass, change to 8" or double 6" at the door. hahaha

[craziechild]

hmm... i was thinking of overlapping some of the frequency of the 6" and the 5"...

[wengweng]

like that have to ask sifu polkman. He using double 5, if not wrong. keng keng midbass. But his is in sealed enclosure

[craziechild]

ya ya... thts what i have in mind but 6" on door without enclosure... then 5" in kick panel with a custom fibre job sealed enclosure....

but where to find polkman sifu ah? hehe...

mayb need a chat with him about tuning also later...

cheers...

[Zenn]

i guess u have to lower your midbass hp to 60+ or maybe 50+ if the mid can handle it.  other than that would be feeding it more power.

[craziechild]

will try tht zenn... thanks...

btw... is my slopes setting ok?

[octave]

craziechild

although I am in 2-way system ( one man one women ) and not in one man two wives ( 3-way system ) ..... may i suggest that you set as :

sub lp 70 at 6 dB
6" mid lp 70 6 dB and hp 350 6 dB
3" mid hp 350 6 dB and lp 2.2k 12 dB
tweeter hp 2.2k 12 dB

  .... when you have more than one wife ....
set the days correctly .... otherwise .... gadoh aja 

and you get frustrated at no enjoying the goodies

[craziechild]

octave... any reason for setting most of the slopes at the same value?

want some expert advise from you...

thanks...

[octave]

craziechild

why do you slope the mid at such high values ?

first ... your sub (30dB) does not blend with your 6" mid ( 12dB ) .
sub should rightfully be set at 6 dB , to allow the roll-off . does
sub-bass rumbles along .....    or comes to an abrupt stop ?

second ... the slope should be gradual from the high to low frequencies .
with the highs having higher slopes .

at any rate , do give it a try . it is free ... anyway .

[craziechild]

but i always read in the west side forum...

i. higher slopes is better to achive front sub bass... while
ii. high slope between the 6" and the 3" mid is better when they are both placed close together...

any truth in this?

surely will try out the slope settting you suggested...

thanks...

[built]

doc, you are back already?

[Zenn]

will try tht zenn... thanks...

btw... is my slopes setting ok?

slope & frequency selection got no correct or incorrect, just play around and see what u prefer.  whatever is good for your music & your ears will do...

just as a guide always start at 12 and then play around lah..

akso your midrange hp i think can try bit more lower, but no less than 250 thereabouts

[Zenn]

but i always read in the west side forum...

i. higher slopes is better to achive front sub bass... while
ii. high slope between the 6" and the 3" mid is better when they are both placed close together...

any truth in this?

surely will try out the slope settting you suggested...

thanks...

yes, in theory also have heard this before, steep slopes for midbass & sub bass, and also steep slopes for midrange & tweeter if close to each other.

but in practice have to try everything coz every car & system is different, thats part of the fun of tuning...

[craziechild]

thanks zenn...

well jus a wild thought... if i made the 5" in sealed box in the kick panel... 5" will play the mid-bass while the 6" on the door playing mid-ranges... will in improve the mid bass area? cuz 5" is in an "enclosure"...

any bashing appreciatted....

thanks....

[iceless]

well jus a wild thought... if i made the 5" in sealed box in the kick panel... 5" will play the mid-bass while the 6" on the door playing mid-ranges... will in improve the mid bass area? cuz 5" is in an "enclosure"...


thanks....

Here's my 2cents...

NO! It will make it worst! The 5", assuming you're considering IRs, isn't designed for badass kickass midbass response! Moreover, you're under utilizing the 6" driver. You may get a better result with twin 5", but again, you're stressing the IRs beyond what it's design to do.

Also, having a 5" in a 1-3-6inch  3-way system will give you a very overwhelming midrange! If you want to use a 5", go 1-5-8inch config. You'd get better responses.

Rgd,

iceless

[iceless]

craziechild

although I am in 2-way system ( one man one women ) and not in one man two wives ( 3-way system ) ..... may i suggest that you set as :

sub lp 70 at 6 dB
6" mid lp 70 6 dB and hp 350 6 dB
3" mid hp 350 6 dB and lp 2.2k 12 dB
tweeter hp 2.2k 12 dB

Yo Doc! Welcome back!

Crazie,

If you want more focus on your midbass, you can try 24db slope for sub (cleaner) and 350hz LP @ 12db slope for midbass. The rest can remain as Doc's suggestion.

One more thing, Have you checked your phase for all drivers?

Rgd,

iceless.

[craziechild]

phase checked... anyway... what i meant was going for 1-5-6 config... 5" still havent really considered which driver to take as  its quite mew to me... still dunno which will yield a better mid-bass responce...

ok... will 1-5-6 still give me overwhelming midrange responce?

[carcrazy]

Crazie!!
You should consider this!!
Tweeter : D2904/7100
Midrange: 15M/4831G00
Midbass : 18W/4831G00
15M plays way better than the 12M
You can check with Polkman!! as he's using
Tweeter : R2904/70000
Midrange: 15M/4831G00 not 12M!!
Midbass : Alpine F#1 15W

[craziechild]

hehe... i see poison... haha...

but then... any price indications for those? PM me... haha...

cheers...

[polkman]

Since you are running your system active, you need to level match your drivers before any eq tuning. Try to increase your midbass gain. Make sure the midbass don't cover the midrange. You can also try to lower the highpass for your midbass to 33Hz at 6db. Btw what speaker cables you are using for your drivers?

[craziechild]

cables used are chord signature RCA and speaker cables and also optichord

anyway... now i i am willing to start the tuning all over again...

can the sifu suggest a list tht i could go through to start all over again?? of cuz tuning i would do myself but some guides on which to set first and which later....

thanks...

[polkman]

Here is my recommendation for you to try:-

tweeter highpass - 4kHz @ 12dB
midrange lowpass - 4kHz @ 12dB
midrange highpass - 250Hz @ 18dB
midbass lowpass - 250Hz @ 18dB
midbass highpass - 33Hz @ 6dB
subwoofer lowpass - 60Hz @ 12dB

Set the processor volume for all channel at 0dB.
Set the volume of your HU to 23. (assuming you are using optical cable to your proc.)
Use a vocal track.
Set the amp gain for mid to achieve a life size vocal.
Set the tweeter and midbass gains for a smooth response
Set the subwoofer gain to match the overall response.

[craziechild]

what is a life sized vocal??

[louis]

mid bass can take it meh ???

Here is my recommendation for you to try:-

tweeter highpass - 4kHz @ 12dB
midrange lowpass - 4kHz @ 12dB
midrange highpass - 250Hz @ 18dB
midbass lowpass - 250Hz @ 18dB
midbass highpass - 33Hz @ 6dB
subwoofer lowpass - 60Hz @ 12dB

Set the processor volume for all channel at 0dB.
Set the volume of your HU to 23. (assuming you are using optical cable to your proc.)
Use a vocal track.
Set the amp gain for mid to achieve a life size vocal.
Set the tweeter and midbass gains for a smooth response
Set the subwoofer gain to match the overall response.

[mnkh27]

mid bass can take it meh ???

Only Revelator and perhaps selected Rainbows. Errr, the one that starts with L probably will bottom out. 

[netken]

ot tuans ... i have a pair of 12M and L3 for sale just inc case ... thanks ...

[polkman]

what is a life sized vocal??

The vocal should sound like it is singing infront of you. It should not sound small and far away.

[polkman]

mid bass can take it meh ???

Boleh...most home speaker also got not highpass for midbass.

[louis]

Boleh...most home speaker also got not highpass for midbass.

yup. but i believe all are being tune by the box to limit the midbass excursion.
if really to play tat low frequency for IB , i believe either u have to play at a low volume instead of a dynamic type.
really wat i saw at 33hz at 6 db is like almost playing fullrange for midbass in IB setup.

even the recommended frequency spec from the manufacturer are starting higher then that.

[Zenn]

neymind la, if rosak can buy new one, hehehe....

his IR6 i would go any lower than 63hz @ 12db or 50hz @ 18db thereabouts lah..

[craziechild]

hehe... been trying out to cross tht low but i think its very stressful for the mid....

anyway... currently...

tweeter hp:3.2k 12db
mid range hp: 300 12db ; lp: 3.2k 12db
mid bass: hp 50 12db ; lp: 300 12db
sub bass lp: 63 6db

anyway... wan to ask... does bandpass the the sub the same as sub-sonic filter? i dunno why and without any clear reason but there is a friend here telling me try it, saying it yields a better results for the bass i wanted... any idea?

but so far... the kick bass improved a bit... but then the sub feels like its beside me rather than in front... anyway to pull it back to the front at 6db?

i have tried 18db and 24db on the sub... but doing so i loose the mid bass and bass gone back to the front...

[polkman]

but so far... the kick bass improved a bit... but then the sub feels like its beside me rather than in front... anyway to pull it back to the front at 6db?

i have tried 18db and 24db on the sub... but doing so i loose the mid bass and bass gone back to the front...

Try change the sub xover to 12dB and midbass to 6dB. Next try change the midbass highpass xover 45Hz, 40Hz, 33Hz to select the best setting. 

[polkman]

yup. but i believe all are being tune by the box to limit the midbass excursion.
if really to play tat low frequency for IB , i believe either u have to play at a low volume instead of a dynamic type.
really wat i saw at 33hz at 6 db is like almost playing fullrange for midbass in IB setup.

even the recommended frequency spec from the manufacturer are starting higher then that.

Because he is playing 3-way front active, the low highpass xover point for midbass will not effect his midrange unlike a 3-way passive setup (ie where the midbass and midrange share a single channel amp)

[craziechild]

polk.. i think my mid cannot take up those low frequency neh... any other idea? cuz it does sound like the sound changed when i cross it tht low... currently also when i play some RnB tracks... the bass from the mid is not so "smooth"... if audiophile type can la... hehe...

anyway... what about the sub band pass thing??

and also should i change the sub out to one channel only on the processor or remain it as 2 channel? any pro-and cons there?

thanks...

[polkman]

polk.. i think my mid cannot take up those low frequency neh... any other idea? cuz it does sound like the sound changed when i cross it tht low... currently also when i play some RnB tracks... the bass from the mid is not so "smooth"... if audiophile type can la... hehe...

anyway... what about the sub band pass thing??

and also should i change the sub out to one channel only on the processor or remain it as 2 channel? any pro-and cons there?

thanks...

Sub bandpass is like subsonic filter. If you have subsonic filter at your amp...you don't need to set the highpass for the sub.

It is ok to run 2 channel from the processor for the sub but make sure both outputs are set to mono.

Btw have you start to EQ. If not try to increase the gain for 60Hz - 100Hz.

[craziechild]

Eq not yet... cuz now still finding the the good stage height and stage... i think should find the right crossover point and gain matching first before starting the EQ right?

 

[polkman]

Eq not yet... cuz now still finding the the good stage height and stage... i think should find the right crossover point and gain matching first before starting the EQ right?

 

Boosting the gain for 60-100Hz will give you more upfront bass but you need to change the sub xover to 12dB. What we try to do is to increase the output of the midbass without much increase in sub output.

[craziechild]

you mean EQ tht range is it? will try when i got the free time... thanks...

[polkman]

yeah