Author Topic: Time Aligment  (Read 2418 times)

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Offline superglwl

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Time Aligment
« on: October 18, 2006, 09:51:50 PM »
wanna ask sifu here...who uses TA to tune for center imaging.
heard that TA kills tonality....
but to be frank my ears are more sensitive to imaging than tone....
i can detact when imaging is not center but i cant detact bad tonality....
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Offline fooyc

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 08:22:38 AM »
I have tried TA on my car a few times when I can't seems to get the spot/tone I wanted.

In fact, I use TA to find out what is just went wrong with the sound, then I go correct the Xover or the level sensitivity.  ;D Then I reset the TA to 0 again.
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Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 08:35:25 AM »
correct TA is very difficult to achieve especially if your playing 3 - way ...

like foo said, TA to zero first, from there i believe you try to play with the gain or level sensitivity ....

if it can be balance that way, there is no further use of TA ...

for so called center imaging, sometimes playing with the gain would be more than sufficient ...

in my previous setup, gain sensitivity was set first, then TA and finally EQ ...

since i go for tube, all 3 has been discarded .... because Tube provides full tonality and also ambience ... although some might argue no imaging..

however, i am trying to be a purist, i.e. let the music be what it is, bearing in mind that not all CDs or Songs were recorded to give out it source in the middle....

it would be a wrong move to use a wrong CD or track e.g. that focuses on ambience when one is looking for center imaging.... best is to use IASCA test tracks i guess... cheerio!!

Offline fooyc

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2006, 08:51:10 AM »
Ken, interestingly, I never heard of tube amp in a car. Would you mind ?
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Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2006, 09:16:23 AM »
dun mind dun mind .... but my car totally dismantled....

we can bench test it, or do it on someone's car... fine with me...

maybe we can PM and do it at TT or something, CV? PM i guess....

Offline 17Ters

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2006, 10:27:36 AM »
TA on 3 way running passive. I have tried using it too. Somehow I heard there seems to be some loss. Like the tonality and the songs seems to come out very weird, something like it is distorted. To my ears at least. Since then I didnt fiddle with TA anymore.

BTW guys... WIth TA, it is CD specific or it should be ok for all CDs? Thanks !  O0
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Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2006, 11:03:39 AM »
but what if your amp dont have individual gain setting.....? then its hard to get center imaging without TA rite?
especially on the low vocal notes. very hard to get imaging from the mids...
so if a vocal play from low to high..i can feel the sound from the doors to the center up stage.










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Offline fooyc

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 11:11:56 AM »
 ;D I see your complication.

I presume you don't have an EQ or complicated passive Xover ?

Yes, then you have to use TA. But only if you really can't tune from the gain/passive.
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Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2006, 11:26:35 AM »
;D I see your complication.

I presume you don't have an EQ or complicated passive Xover ?

Yes, then you have to use TA. But only if you really can't tune from the gain/passive.

my EQ and crossover are from my HU 9835
and i am running 3way active using a/d/s amp crossover for band pass
feeding both mids and midrange wit 1 set of preout.(not y-cable)
so when i use TA to tune my midrange, my mid bass goes together with it.

tuning a 2 way was never this hard.
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Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2006, 11:33:26 AM »
TA on 3 way running passive. I have tried using it too. Somehow I heard there seems to be some loss. Like the tonality and the songs seems to come out very weird, something like it is distorted. To my ears at least. Since then I didnt fiddle with TA anymore.

BTW guys... WIth TA, it is CD specific or it should be ok for all CDs? Thanks !  O0

bro, for me, once u tune the TA with the correct CD ... it should work for all the CDs..

just dun panic if certain CDs still seems not to be so centered ... lol ..

Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 11:34:16 AM »
but what if your amp dont have individual gain setting.....? then its hard to get center imaging without TA rite?
especially on the low vocal notes. very hard to get imaging from the mids...
so if a vocal play from low to high..i can feel the sound from the doors to the center up stage.

my apologies, setup was using H700 and later H900 processing power .. >:D









« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 11:34:44 AM by netken »

Offline fooyc

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 11:37:09 AM »
Thanks. But mind telling me, aren't 9835 only have 2 stereo pre-out ? Fr+Rr.

I presume you are running FrPreOut for Tw and RrPreOut for Md/Wf. It is no surprise the Md/Wf will be going in tandem in this case, unless you run those 3way EQ or HU like HX-D2 that has 3 stereo preout.

err..where's your passive ? What speakers are they ?
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Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 11:43:52 AM »
Thanks. But mind telling me, aren't 9835 only have 2 stereo pre-out ? Fr+Rr.

I presume you are running FrPreOut for Tw and RrPreOut for Md/Wf. It is no surprise the Md/Wf will be going in tandem in this case, unless you run those 3way EQ or HU like HX-D2 that has 3 stereo preout.

err..where's your passive ? What speakers are they ?

yup...only got 2 pre out 1 sub.
Frpreout for tweets and Rrpreout for midrange and mids.
my eq now is flat....
no passive..coz this a/d/s amp i got can feed 1 pair of input to 4 channels. then i use the amp crossover to HPmidrange and LPmids.

my tweets are vifa,
midrange morel made marcom
mids a/d/s

oh plz help me...i am going nuts bout tuning 3 way.
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Offline Oldskolboyz

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 11:46:45 AM »
9835 got 3 preout woor & max can run 3ways full active only, Sub/Mid/tweet.. HX-D2 diff woorr this 1 can run 4ways Full active set-up maaa, Sub/LowMid/HighMid/tweet

Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2006, 11:48:58 AM »
9835 got 3 preout woor & max can run 3ways full active only, Sub/Mid/tweet.. HX-D2 diff woorr this 1 can run 4ways Full active set-up maaa, Sub/LowMid/HighMid/tweet

well what i mean is 3way front setup,,,
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Offline Oldskolboyz

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2006, 11:53:39 AM »
the a/d/s amp XO function similar to helix A4 kaa? if not your Midbass & Midrange play same freq woorr.. or to many filter.. 1st at HU bandpass 2nd at amp U adj LP (decrease) for Midbass & HP (increase) for Midrange.. for HP midbass & LP midrange no changes same as U set at HU kaa?  

Offline wengweng

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2006, 09:42:42 AM »
super,
Since you are running 3 way, maybe you would like to try to TA only the midbass. Ie. Set your midrange frequencies at a minimum of 800Hz @ 12dB. Let the midrange and tweeter play from 800Hz up. Try set the TA to zero for these 2 drivers. Then TA the midbass and see whether the imaging is acceptable to you....just my 2 sen

Offline Zenn

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 01:13:37 PM »
his setup is ok i think, time align the tweets with front pre out using the HU, this should help the most.  what are your crossover frequencies for the high, mid & sub?  i assume your HU is already set for 3 way (hi/mid/lo) and not front/rear/sub.  the a/d/s has a bandpass capable onboard crossover so thats fine to split the frequencies between midrange & midbass.

Offline Oldskolboyz

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 02:19:14 PM »
super,
Since you are running 3 way, maybe you would like to try to TA only the midbass. Ie. Set your midrange frequencies at a minimum of 800Hz @ 12dB. Let the midrange and tweeter play from 800Hz up. Try set the TA to zero for these 2 drivers. Then TA the midbass and see whether the imaging is acceptable to you....just my 2 sen

wengweng can not laa.. coz he use same output/source for Midbass & Midrange from HU.. how to set zero for Midrange & adj the TA for midbass at the same time.. if he resort amp again should be laa.. a/d/s for tweet & midrange       

Offline wengweng

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2006, 02:48:57 PM »
haha OSB, I didnt read properly....yeah midrange + midbass from 1 preout.. :-[ 

The method I said can throw away....Or can the a/d/s used to HP tweeter + bandpass for midrange ? Something like tweeter HP 6k-8k, and midrange bandpass 250-8k ? If can, then still can do resorting like OSB said.

Curious, what is the bandpass frequencies for the midbass and midrange currently ?


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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2006, 03:15:14 AM »
now...after some advice from louis......maybe try to put the tweeters and midrange higher....so that driver dash bulge not interfering the driver.....take off some polyfill from sub box....

then maybe i try swap amp.....

helix 60X2 power mid bass(coz this amp comes with individual gain)
a/d/s power tweets and midrange.

y 3 way so headache 1.....haih....
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Offline GRexer

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2006, 01:51:19 PM »
now...after some advice from louis......maybe try to put the tweeters and midrange higher....so that driver dash bulge not interfering the driver.....take off some polyfill from sub box....

then maybe i try swap amp.....

helix 60X2 power mid bass(coz this amp comes with individual gain)
a/d/s power tweets and midrange.

y 3 way so headache 1.....haih....

3-way memang headache one ma... :D Anyway... i was actually initially thinking you are using the a/d/s/ for the tweeters and midrange, until later only i finally understand you are using it for midrange and midbass instead, hence the earlier suggestions i made were kinda flawed about the crossover frequencies and slope.
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Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2006, 06:39:48 PM »
i think esp, mix and match 3 way, would u agree Grexer???


Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 07:04:42 PM »
after swaping.....no more low vocal sticking on the doors....
but more hissing on jm.lab track11 and the snare dont sound like 1.....no impact....
but the midbass now is much better than before....

got some advice from built and polkman.....
but still something is lacking....
maybe take polkman advice to go with midrange on the kicks....
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 10:37:10 PM by superglwl »
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Offline built

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 08:51:31 PM »
superglwl,

me, advice? you must be kidding...
 
the chat we had this afternoon was just an
exchange of ideas. in fact, i find that your car
set up is oledi very good. perhaps it just your
expectation - "really high". or maybe i was sitting
in middle, behind you guys.





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Enjoy the music!
music is the only sensual pleasure without vice... - octave

Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 10:47:39 PM »
Quote
superglwl,

me, advice? you must be kidding...
 
the chat we had this afternoon was just an
exchange of ideas. in fact, i find that your car
set up is oledi very good. perhaps it just your
expectation - "really high". or maybe i was sitting
in middle, behind you guys.

you help more than you would know....
anyway...after 2 hours in the car....
play with driver level, the tweeters no longer hiss that much.
TA the midrange and tweets to match the driver to get that snare impact..
so far so good...
MARANTZ test disc track no 6 sounded just the way i like it....but vocal still sound a bit too thick untill muddy..
still need to get golden ears to do the crossover point right...

learn alot from louis,polkman and built in this 2 days....
thanks alot man you guys...

and yes of coz thanks built for the drink you buy me today.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 04:01:05 PM by netken »
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Offline built

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2006, 03:57:52 PM »
super,
you are welcome...

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Enjoy the music!
music is the only sensual pleasure without vice... - octave

Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2006, 04:01:24 PM »
super, edited ur html codings... :D

Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2006, 05:19:14 PM »
y i type one thing come out another....
typer "before" come out "built"
funny
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Offline netken

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2006, 05:48:59 PM »
y i type one thing come out another....
typer "before" come out "built"
funny

err... i can only edit the forum tags but not what u type or ur neuro cortex ... lol ....

Offline superglwl

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2006, 11:46:03 PM »
hurm...then maybe my typing prob lor.....haha
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Offline kinetix101

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Re: Time Aligment
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2006, 04:18:28 PM »
y i type one thing come out another....
typer "before" come out "built"
funny

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